Professor Bailey V. Gillespie, from La Sierra University’s Department of Theology and Christian Character in California, impressed me with both the diversity of his interests and his prestigious achievements, particularly in the field of young people’s religious experience.
Dr Gillespie coordinated a large-scale study of youth religiosity entitled ValueGenesis, which was highly regarded by individuals concerned with the transmission of faith from one generation to another, and its acquisition by young people. I asked Dr Gillespie to summarise the findings of this research.
Looking at the fields in which you have made your mark, I am amazed: psychology, music, theology, and archaeology. Is there a connection between all of these fields? Perhaps it is working with young people?
Indeed. I have always been passionate about young people and have enjoyed any opportunity to spend time with them.
Even archaeology… Most of the volunteers who assist archaeologists are young.
I spent seven years working as an archaeologist in Israel, directing the site at Caesarea Maritima—the magnificent city built by King Herod. It’s a magnificent settlement covering around 3,270 hectares. I had the chance to excavate the city’s main streets.
So, I’ve probably visited one of the sites where you’ve worked.
When people find out you’re an archaeologist, they always want to know what you’ve found, so I’ll get straight to that. Nobody wants to hear about the sweltering days in the desert or the unpalatable food. In Herod the Great’s grain silos, right next to the port, we found a mosaic wall with a fresco of the Last Supper. This had been covered up by the Arabs when they occupied the city in 639 AD. After removing the plaster, we discovered a four-metre painting of the Last Supper with Greek inscriptions from the writings of the Apostle Paul at the bottom. Therefore, between 180 and 210 AD, there must have been Christians there celebrating the Lord’s Supper. Perhaps those Christians were converts of Cornelius, the Roman officer.
Ah, he’s one of my favourite characters! You’ve had time to experience many things in life. What advice would you give young people? Should they decide early on what they want to do with their lives? Or should they allow themselves some freedom and pursue the things that interest them?
At some point, you have to discover your interests. Parents often guide their children on what to do with their lives, as if they want to live their lives through them. However, when children reach high school or college, they must make their own decisions regarding both their profession and their religious beliefs. They must learn to make their own decisions; otherwise, later in life, they will look back and blame everyone else for not succeeding in life. They have to learn responsibility by making decisions.
I believe that today’s world pressures us to decide too early, and that it would be better to take our time.
However, I believe that today’s world pressures us to decide too early, and that it would be better to take our time with decisions. The renowned psychologist Erik Erikson said that everyone needs a “psychosocial moratorium,” or delay in life. At some point, you have to take a step back and ask yourself, “Hold on. What am I doing? Where am I going?’ Important decisions such as life’s purpose, vision and mission, contribution to society and religious community are ones that young people make during transitions. I believe they need to experiment to see where their talents flourish and what works for them.
I am excited about young people who set aside time to travel on humanitarian or missionary trips, for example, because these trips give them the opportunity to consider how they can help others. This shifts their focus away from themselves and allows them to consider other people. I believe that you can always choose to imitate Jesus’s way of life because He was a wonderful role model. He helped people. You can then test your main areas of interest in a practical way. I feel very privileged to work at a Christian university that sends young people all over the world for a year. When they return, I listen to their experiences: either they fall in love with it, or they never want to do it again. Most of them enjoy it, though, and come back with a clearer idea of what they want to do in life. At this stage in their lives, it is important for them to talk to each other and consider how their talents fit in with their goals and dreams.
That interesting reference to Erikson provides a bridge to the next topic. You have studied the process of religious conversion in great detail. What fundamental factors contribute to conversion? Conversion can mean a deepening of one’s own faith—reaching maturity in one’s current faith—or, conversely, a change in faith.
The Hebrew word itself means “to turn your back,” “to return,” “to come home,” and the process of returning in one’s life can be very traumatic. If you are far from home, returning may seem painful. This is why people sometimes experience overwhelming emotion when they undergo religious conversion. However, I believe this is more related to them than to God: I believe it depends on how far away from home they feel they are. Conversion can mean that one day I am a Buddhist and the next I am a Protestant Christian. However, conversion can also signify a deepening commitment to a new way of life and mature devotion.
Another important term in the New Testament is “born again”, which can be confusing. According to the passage about Nicodemus in the Gospel of John, however, being born again means believing in Jesus. Jesus talks about how to get to heaven three times, adding something each time. The first time, He says that you don’t have to go back into your mother’s womb to be born again; however, if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven, you must be born again. The second time, He tells Nicodemus that this rebirth must be accomplished through water and the Holy Spirit. Physical birth involves water: people are born from water, the water breaks, allowing newborns to enter the world. You must also have a spiritual birth. Then He utters the famous words of John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Being born again therefore means believing in Jesus. This changes a person’s life, their perspectives and their priorities, and change can then occur at any level.
I think we confuse young people by telling them it’s a shocking experience. It’s not like that; rather, it’s a deep commitment to a God who loves them. When they understand this, they sort out their priorities, focus on their mission and their future, and find that they have changed.
Of course, it’s very moving to see incredible changes in the lives of people who were very lost, but it’s difficult for those who haven’t experienced it themselves because they don’t know how to process such a deeply overwhelming experience.
We must remember that only one dramatic conversion like that of Paul on the road to Damascus is recorded in the Bible. Many other people in the Bible did not have experiences like this, yet they have a remarkable place in the history of faith. Paul’s experience was somewhat of an exception. I believe that the further away from home you are, the more dramatic the moment of returning home will be. If you are emotional by nature, your personality and temperament will also play an important role in how you feel about what is happening.
I grew up in a family where neither of my parents practised Christianity. They were wonderful people. My father worked at a bank. He was an honest man with strong values, which he passed on to me. There was discipline in the family. He was loving and had a well-developed sense of humour. My mother was a loving, protective, and compassionate woman. When my father became a committed Christian, he told me, “You know what? I’m not doing anything differently; I just have a new motivation.”
So, his conversion was very gentle from an emotional point of view.
This gives me hope as a Christian that my experience will be unique, and that I am the only authority regarding my own experience. It’s personal. God doesn’t have one plan for everyone, and I think that’s the challenge.
Do you still believe that everyone, regardless of their background or lifestyle, needs transformation?
Yes. After all, we transform ourselves all the time from other perspectives: when we change jobs, get married, move to another location, graduate from college, or experience a bereavement. There are many reasons why people make changes. So, transformation is not unusual in our lives; it happens regularly. When transformation involves God, you open yourself up to a new set of values and exciting discoveries that help you focus on your life’s mission. Conversion can therefore be a wonderful experience that provides calm and a new sense of purpose.
However, many people fear change, or rather, too much change.
Life today is full of transitions, and people are tired of it. Consequently, they try to keep their religion unchanged by either remaining at the same level or keeping the same faith, even if they lack real conviction, and even if that religion does not offer them hope for the future, adequate access to the supernatural, and eternal life, which are defining features of religion.
What would you say to people who fear change?
There is a genuine link between a person’s psychology and their understanding of God.
There is a genuine link between a person’s psychological makeup and their perception of God. Sometimes, God dramatically changes our personality, but most of the time He works with what He is given—He accepts us as we are. Therefore, a shy person should not feel that they cannot have a genuine experience of God’s presence to the same extent as someone who is sociable, open, and extroverted. Unfortunately, even the Church can give the impression that you need to have a certain type of experience. This can be very frustrating if you are not that kind of person. I always like to tell my students that in a class of 20 people, there will be 20 different experiences of God, and the joy is in sharing them and learning from each others’ experiences.
I strongly believe in continuous change. You don’t change only once. Many changes take place in a person’s life. When people develop and God gives them a cause or a true mission, they begin to focus on that. They discover gifts they never knew they had because God gives them these gifts.
Even if we are convinced that our understanding of the faith is correct, is it right to tell others that they have apostatised if they change their religious affiliation? Is it right to try to stop them from changing by making them feel guilty?
One reason people don’t change is because they feel guilty. It’s a matter of psychological attachment. If we examine how faith is formed, we see that it begins with an impulse from the family. It is a reflected faith because you adopt what you have received from your family. The only things you know are the things you grow up with. If your family is very religious, and if you have religious role models who embody the positive aspects of religion, such as love, compassion, and communication skills, then those role models will shape you. But at some point in life, your small social circle expands to include relatives and friends, and they all influence you. Society begins to impact you, too: the community you live in, the church community, and the professional community, for example. As you go through adolescence, you have to make decisions on your own. This is the transition from reflected faith to a broader, personalised faith.
One reason people don’t change is because they feel guilty. It’s a matter of psychological attachment.
Feelings of guilt may now arise because it’s time to make your own decisions. You choose a few things that were important to you in childhood and continue to use them, while also learning new things and incorporating them into your life. However, you may begin to feel tension between who you were and who you are now. This often translates into guilt, which is a powerful motivational factor. Some people exploit this to control the lives of others.
I think guilt and shame are connected in this way.
Yes. They are very closely related. However, a person who develops their own religious life and makes their own commitments to God must acknowledge that they are no longer the same person they used to be. They now have a new vision for their life and must accept that they have discovered a new truth, read the Bible and think for themselves. However, using shame to hold someone back would deny them the right to have their own personality, which is a great sin. Sometimes, people feel that they would like to adopt a new way of understanding God, faith, and religious behaviour, but they also feel that they will not be able to keep up with the demands.
There is a feeling, or perhaps a prejudice, that if you change religion and are unable to commit to it fully, it will be worse than not having changed at all. This keeps some people from changing.
It’s true. We must remember that we are talking about the beginning of a change, not the end. People need time to adapt to the new context. The same applies in any field. During this period, the emphasis should not primarily be on correct behaviour, but on strengthening commitment; otherwise, the process of healthy growth is disrupted.
According to the Christian faith, we are saved by God’s grace, which makes our faith work. As we work, we become responsible individuals. Being responsible, we choose to act in ways that reflect our understanding of God’s great gift of love.
